Musician, March 1991: Difference between revisions
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As everyone knows, [[Grateful Dead]] fans come in all sorts and | As everyone knows, [[Grateful Dead]] fans come in all sorts and | ||
sizes | sizes — including one Elvis Costello. And so, when Musician got | ||
the idea of putting him together with the Dead's eminence grise, | the idea of putting him together with the Dead's eminence grise, | ||
[[Jerry Garcia]], Elvis took a detour on his way to Los Angeles, | [[Jerry Garcia]], Elvis took a detour on his way to Los Angeles, | ||
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McNally prophesied, "you'll probably only talk for hours and | McNally prophesied, "you'll probably only talk for hours and | ||
hours." That was about right. Contrary to casual perception, | hours." That was about right. Contrary to casual perception, | ||
Garcia and Costello have more than a little in common | Garcia and Costello have more than a little in common — voluble | ||
personalities, inquiring minds, Irish blood, handy wit and those | personalities, inquiring minds, Irish blood, handy wit and those | ||
shaggy beards, for starters, not to mention a way with a melody. | shaggy beards, for starters, not to mention a way with a melody. | ||
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without my own. | without my own. | ||
'''Elvis:''' It was a whole Three Stooges routine | '''Elvis:''' It was a whole Three Stooges routine — "Here, you take my | ||
guitar," "No, I'll take your guitar." Of course guitar players | guitar," "No, I'll take your guitar." Of course guitar players | ||
who can play usually don't refer to the fingerings [position | who can play usually don't refer to the fingerings [position | ||
markers] on the fretboard | markers] on the fretboard — but if there are fingerings, they can | ||
be bewildering. I think I had Burton's old Telecaster for half a | be bewildering. I think I had Burton's old Telecaster for half a | ||
song, and James had my old Martin acoustic which wasn't cranked | song, and James had my old Martin acoustic which wasn't cranked | ||
up so he couldn't solo | up so he couldn't solo — and Jerry's struggling with my guitar. | ||
But once everybody got settled we managed to struggle through a | But once everybody got settled we managed to struggle through a | ||
couple of Hank Williams songs. Like any sort of jam thing it | couple of Hank Williams songs. Like any sort of jam thing it | ||
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'''Jerry:''' John Scher talked me into doing a solo show one time. He | '''Jerry:''' John Scher talked me into doing a solo show one time. He | ||
kept saying, "Come on, it'll be great, go on out there with an | kept saying, "Come on, it'll be great, go on out there with an | ||
acoustic guitar." Finally I relented | acoustic guitar." Finally I relented — I got weak. Two shows I | ||
had booked at Scher's little theater in Passaic, New Jersey. So | had booked at Scher's little theater in Passaic, New Jersey. So | ||
I went there | I went there — and I was petrified. I had [bassist] John Kahn fly | ||
out on the next flight. Like, I'll do the next time, but I'm not | out on the next flight. Like, I'll do the next time, but I'm not | ||
going onstage again by myself. I'm a support musician, that's | going onstage again by myself. I'm a support musician, that's | ||
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That's what I enjoy most, supporting somebody else. | That's what I enjoy most, supporting somebody else. | ||
Musician: Do you think your style as a player comes out of that | ''Musician: Do you think your style as a player comes out of that bluegrass background? | ||
bluegrass background? | |||
'''Jerry:''' Oh yeah, it comes from my fondness for a clearly spoken | '''Jerry:''' Oh yeah, it comes from my fondness for a clearly spoken | ||
line, a clearly enunciated note. | line, a clearly enunciated note. | ||
Musician: I think it will be a surprise to some readers to see you two | ''Musician: I think it will be a surprise to some readers to see you two together, because of the stereotype that comes with the territory, of who you are. To what extent does that stereotype have truth, and to what extent are you perhaps trapped by it? | ||
together, because of the stereotype that comes with the | |||
territory, of who you are. To what extent does that stereotype | |||
have truth, and to what extent are you perhaps trapped by it? | |||
'''Jerry:''' I don't have much reality on my stereotype, because I'm | '''Jerry:''' I don't have much reality on my stereotype, because I'm surrounded by it, you know what I mean? So I don't know what it includes. For example, is my stereotype famous for being musically very accepting or...? | ||
surrounded by it, you know what I mean? So I don't know what it | |||
includes. For example, is my stereotype famous for being | |||
musically very accepting or...? | |||
'''Elvis:''' It's the balance of the musical stuff and the cultural | '''Elvis:''' It's the balance of the musical stuff and the cultural | ||
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bit more money. | bit more money. | ||
'''Jerry:''' That's true, and it's much larger too. In those days our | '''Jerry:''' That's true, and it's much larger too. In those days our mystique sort of preceded us, more than people who had actually experienced shows. | ||
mystique sort of preceded us, more than people who had actually | |||
experienced shows. | |||
'''Elvis:''' The first time I ever saw Jerry's picture was on a | '''Elvis:''' The first time I ever saw Jerry's picture was on a | ||
record | record — it was the first album — that my dad gave to me. This would | ||
be about '68. My dad was a little older than I am now, he grew | be about '68. My dad was a little older than I am now, he grew | ||
his hair and he got into the contemporary music. One day he | his hair and he got into the contemporary music. One day he | ||
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bar band the option was to play Beatles stuff or Rolling Stones | bar band the option was to play Beatles stuff or Rolling Stones | ||
and we always opted for whatever the Rolling Stones were | and we always opted for whatever the Rolling Stones were | ||
doing | doing — because we had a better understanding of where their music | ||
was coming from. | was coming from. | ||
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'''Jerry:''' Discussing the niceties of soul-collecting. | '''Jerry:''' Discussing the niceties of soul-collecting. | ||
Musician: It's ironic that people now are trying to recapture the | ''Musician: It's ironic that people now are trying to recapture the so-called "danger" of rock 'n' roll and — | ||
so-called "danger" of rock 'n' roll and | |||
'''Jerry:''' We're still trying to transcend it. We're living in the | '''Jerry:''' We're still trying to transcend it. We're living in the | ||
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life. But that totally sucks. And the other option is that you | life. But that totally sucks. And the other option is that you | ||
get so popular the numbers insist that you play in huge | get so popular the numbers insist that you play in huge | ||
stadiums | stadiums — which also sucks. So apart from inventing your own way | ||
to continue working, you're stuck really, 'cause inertia will | to continue working, you're stuck really, 'cause inertia will | ||
take you to one of those two places, and neither one of them is | take you to one of those two places, and neither one of them is | ||
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'''Jerry:''' More metaphorical. | '''Jerry:''' More metaphorical. | ||
'''Elvis:''' You're hoping they'll enjoy something that you enjoy | '''Elvis:''' You're hoping they'll enjoy something that you enjoy — maybe | ||
you bring some different musicians, or a new approach. With the | you bring some different musicians, or a new approach. With the | ||
Dead, on every occasion I've seen them over a number of years, | Dead, on every occasion I've seen them over a number of years, | ||
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In the late '60s, I saw the Fairport Convention — whose very name, | In the late '60s, I saw the Fairport Convention — whose very name, | ||
I think, suggested they tried to model themselves after a West | I think, suggested they tried to model themselves after a West | ||
Coast band | Coast band — almost coming to blows about which songs they were | ||
going to do next. Onstage at the Albert Hall. It was great. | going to do next. Onstage at the Albert Hall. It was great. | ||
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else to be. The idea is to create challenges, I think. If | else to be. The idea is to create challenges, I think. If | ||
you're lucky, that band does that. With the grateful Dead it's | you're lucky, that band does that. With the grateful Dead it's | ||
impossible to predict what anybody is going to play | impossible to predict what anybody is going to play — just | ||
hopeless. So if you expect to not have things go past you, you | hopeless. So if you expect to not have things go past you, you | ||
have to pay attention. Being required to pay attention in itself | have to pay attention. Being required to pay attention in itself | ||
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songs that were never recorded in the studio, that were all on | songs that were never recorded in the studio, that were all on | ||
that live album, that are really terrific, and a kind of music | that live album, that are really terrific, and a kind of music | ||
that | that — nobody's ever put a name to it, but it's kind of electric | ||
ragtime. | ragtime. | ||
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something in mind, actually, when we started. In fact it's so | something in mind, actually, when we started. In fact it's so | ||
pragmatic it's almost silly. We spend so much money on our third | pragmatic it's almost silly. We spend so much money on our third | ||
album, ''Aoxomoxoa'' | album, ''Aoxomoxoa'' — we spent almost a year working on it and it | ||
was not that great of an album | was not that great of an album — that we had a huge deficit. So I | ||
was thinking, when we go to the studio next time, let's try a | was thinking, when we go to the studio next time, let's try a | ||
really close-to-the-bone approach, like the way they recorded | really close-to-the-bone approach, like the way they recorded | ||
country and western records | country and western records — a few instruments, relatively simple | ||
and easy-to-perform songs. It was quite conscious, an effort to | and easy-to-perform songs. It was quite conscious, an effort to | ||
say, "Let's not spend a year, let's do it all in three weeks and | say, "Let's not spend a year, let's do it all in three weeks and | ||
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'''Jerry:''' Yeah. We're kind of on the far fringe of it, but we're | '''Jerry:''' Yeah. We're kind of on the far fringe of it, but we're | ||
part of that California Bakersfield school of country and western | part of that California Bakersfield school of country and western | ||
rock 'n' roll | rock 'n' roll — [[Buck Owens]], [[Merle Haggard]]. We used to go see those | ||
bands and think, "Gee, those guys are great." [Buck Owens' | bands and think, "Gee, those guys are great." [Buck Owens' | ||
guitarist] Don Rich was one of my favorites, I learned a lot of | guitarist] Don Rich was one of my favorites, I learned a lot of | ||
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song, putting a song together that is singable, that has the | song, putting a song together that is singable, that has the | ||
thing of being able to communicate at once at several levels, and | thing of being able to communicate at once at several levels, and | ||
that you can feel good about singing | that you can feel good about singing — that you can live with. For | ||
me that's real important, since I feel relatively limited as a | me that's real important, since I feel relatively limited as a | ||
performer, as an actor, where you can sing a song and be the | performer, as an actor, where you can sing a song and be the | ||
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just an incredible fiddler. He grew up in bars, and he was a | just an incredible fiddler. He grew up in bars, and he was a | ||
total alcoholic wreck by the time I heard him, in his early 30s, | total alcoholic wreck by the time I heard him, in his early 30s, | ||
playing with the Kentucky Colonels | playing with the Kentucky Colonels — who used to have Clarence | ||
White and Roland White. | White and Roland White. | ||
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L.A. They did this medium-tempo fiddle tune, like "8th of | L.A. They did this medium-tempo fiddle tune, like "8th of | ||
January," and it's going along, and pretty soon Scotty starts | January," and it's going along, and pretty soon Scotty starts | ||
taking these longer and longer phrases | taking these longer and longer phrases — 10 bars, 14 bars, 17 | ||
bars | bars — and the guys in the band are just watching him! They're | ||
barely playing, going ding-ding-ding, while he's burning. The | barely playing, going ding-ding-ding, while he's burning. The | ||
place was transfixed. They played this tune for like 20 minutes, | place was transfixed. They played this tune for like 20 minutes, | ||
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bluegrass bars and getting involved in that whole country and | bluegrass bars and getting involved in that whole country and | ||
western soap opera life took him away and he died pretty early. | western soap opera life took him away and he died pretty early. | ||
But his playing on the records he appears on | But his playing on the records he appears on — mostly | ||
anonymously | anonymously — is this incredible blaze. He's like the bluegrass | ||
Charlie Parker. They just recently released a live tape of the | Charlie Parker. They just recently released a live tape of the | ||
very show I was at, with the Kentucky Colonels. So you can get | very show I was at, with the Kentucky Colonels. So you can get | ||
that. You can probably get it at John's store. | that. You can probably get it at John's store. | ||
Musician: Is that something you can work on, that improvisational | ''Musician: Is that something you can work on, that improvisational approach? | ||
approach? | |||
'''Jerry:''' Well, it's always been a part of my playing. But sure you | '''Jerry:''' Well, it's always been a part of my playing. But sure you | ||
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really anchoring the band, it works great. | really anchoring the band, it works great. | ||
Musician: Do you have a work schedule to keep your creative | ''Musician: Do you have a work schedule to keep your creative juices flowing? | ||
juices flowing? | |||
'''Jerry:''' I do. There's a definite threshold for me. I like to | '''Jerry:''' I do. There's a definite threshold for me. I like to | ||
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When the Gipsy Kings were touring, there was something about the | When the Gipsy Kings were touring, there was something about the | ||
way that guy stepped up and played his solos | way that guy stepped up and played his solos — yeah! So for the | ||
next couple of shows, I tried it | next couple of shows, I tried it — "I'm just gonna snap these | ||
babies off like that guy." And it worked for me. It had nothing | babies off like that guy." And it worked for me. It had nothing | ||
to do with the music, it had only to do with the way the guy | to do with the music, it had only to do with the way the guy | ||
addressed the whole problem | addressed the whole problem — how do you take your guitar and play | ||
a solo? | a solo? | ||
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period, there are certain ensemble pieces of playing which you | period, there are certain ensemble pieces of playing which you | ||
can see repeated, but in a whole song structure-contained way; | can see repeated, but in a whole song structure-contained way; | ||
for instance, this strange sort of accented beat | for instance, this strange sort of accented beat — it's not really | ||
reggae or calypso, starts with "China Cat Sunflower" but is most | reggae or calypso, starts with "China Cat Sunflower" but is most | ||
pronounced on something like "Scarlet Begonias." As if the chord | pronounced on something like "Scarlet Begonias." As if the chord | ||
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'''Elvis:''' That was the time at which my first record came, and I put | '''Elvis:''' That was the time at which my first record came, and I put | ||
some voltage into it | some voltage into it — not in terms of volume, but in terms of | ||
speed | speed — which was a quite self-conscious attempt because I realized | ||
that the music that I liked was about to be stranded by the tide | that the music that I liked was about to be stranded by the tide | ||
going out. The very band I had to play on it was a Marin County | going out. The very band I had to play on it was a Marin County | ||
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like a bar band, pedal-steel first solo." I didn't even say | like a bar band, pedal-steel first solo." I didn't even say | ||
that, this was decided spontaneously. The self-conscious element | that, this was decided spontaneously. The self-conscious element | ||
was not to pretend that I never liked that music | was not to pretend that I never liked that music — 'cause I | ||
couldn't do that, I liked it too much | couldn't do that, I liked it too much — but to make it not too | ||
polite. | polite. | ||
Musician: When you spoke earlier of aspiring to the | ''Musician: When you spoke earlier of aspiring to the respectability of jazz, did that in any way influence the group to move in an improvisational direction? | ||
respectability of jazz, did that in any way influence the group | |||
to move in an improvisational direction? | |||
'''Jerry:''' Not really. By then I'd forgotten I'd even had thoughts | '''Jerry:''' Not really. By then I'd forgotten I'd even had thoughts | ||
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a very youthful point of view. By then I'd "gotten over" rock | a very youthful point of view. By then I'd "gotten over" rock | ||
'n' roll and was involved in bluegrass music, and seriously | 'n' roll and was involved in bluegrass music, and seriously | ||
pushing in that direction | pushing in that direction — when all of a sudden the Beatles came | ||
along and all that and I went | along and all that and I went — "Oh, okay, sure." | ||
'''Elvis:''' When you're 15...I remember there was six months where I | '''Elvis:''' When you're 15...I remember there was six months where I | ||
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because there isn't the variation. Everyone hears the same music | because there isn't the variation. Everyone hears the same music | ||
all the time, the sources are so universal. Which is too bad | all the time, the sources are so universal. Which is too bad | ||
really | really — there's no mysterious message. | ||
'''Jerry:''' In the early days of rock n' roll, every record sounded | '''Jerry:''' In the early days of rock n' roll, every record sounded | ||
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'''Elvis:''' If you compare Sinatra's original stuff on Columbia to the | '''Elvis:''' If you compare Sinatra's original stuff on Columbia to the | ||
later period on Capitol | later period on Capitol — I don't know whether he did this | ||
consciously or just in terms of aging naturally from a young man | consciously or just in terms of aging naturally from a young man | ||
to a middle-aged man | to a middle-aged man — but he lowered his range, or he chose to | ||
sing lower. He can still hit the high notes in the Capitol | sing lower. He can still hit the high notes in the Capitol | ||
records, but he didn't choose to; he often put them in a lower, | records, but he didn't choose to; he often put them in a lower, | ||
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'''Jerry:''' The microphone produced that style of singing. Starting | '''Jerry:''' The microphone produced that style of singing. Starting | ||
with Bing Crosby. The thing of being able to sing at a | with Bing Crosby. The thing of being able to sing at a | ||
conversational level | conversational level — "crooning" — so you didn't have to below from | ||
the back of the room. All those Nelson Riddle arrangements are | the back of the room. All those Nelson Riddle arrangements are | ||
designed to surround that middle range and plug in the holes. | designed to surround that middle range and plug in the holes. | ||
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song kind of went right between two voices where I go into a | song kind of went right between two voices where I go into a | ||
harsher range, and as I went up there was all this obnoxious high | harsher range, and as I went up there was all this obnoxious high | ||
end. Then we used an old RCA mike | end. Then we used an old RCA mike — | ||
'''Jerry:''' It takes the overtones out | '''Jerry:''' It takes the overtones out — | ||
'''Elvis:''' And suddenly you could hear it. You realize there's a lot | '''Elvis:''' And suddenly you could hear it. You realize there's a lot | ||
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'''Jerry:''' Get the sponges. | '''Jerry:''' Get the sponges. | ||
Musician: When you're writing songs do you think about how your | ''Musician: When you're writing songs do you think about how your voice will carry it over? | ||
voice will carry it over? | |||
'''Jerry:''' I wish I were that meticulous about it. I'm not. I | '''Jerry:''' I wish I were that meticulous about it. I'm not. I | ||
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the other. We're not capable of it. | the other. We're not capable of it. | ||
Musician: The Dead have remained relatively consistent in terms | ''Musician: The Dead have remained relatively consistent in terms of what they're about, but the culture has changed quite a bit since the late '60s. | ||
of what they're about, but the culture has changed quite a bit | |||
since the late '60s. | |||
'''Jerry:''' Well, those people all have real, authentic lives. Their | '''Jerry:''' Well, those people all have real, authentic lives. Their | ||
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shape and size of experience. | shape and size of experience. | ||
Musician: But in the late '60s you were a paradigm of the | ''Musician: But in the late '60s you were a paradigm of the surrounding culture; now it's more of an aberration. | ||
surrounding culture; now it's more of an aberration. | |||
'''Jerry:''' We didn't fit into that much better than anything else. | '''Jerry:''' We didn't fit into that much better than anything else. | ||
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'''Elvis:''' Plus, that's the approved ''Newsweek'' version of the '60s. | '''Elvis:''' Plus, that's the approved ''Newsweek'' version of the '60s. | ||
All the ''National Lampoon'' parodies of the alternative culture | All the ''National Lampoon'' parodies of the alternative culture | ||
have come true | have come true — now you really can get '''60s Golden Protest | ||
Favorites'', a historical view which completely distorts that | Favorites'', a historical view which completely distorts that | ||
time. When you were 15 or 16 it was an enormously exciting time, | time. When you were 15 or 16 it was an enormously exciting time, | ||
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circumstances are so different. | circumstances are so different. | ||
Musician: Part of what makes the Dead meaningful to audiences is | ''Musician: Part of what makes the Dead meaningful to audiences is that it can still provide a different way of looking at the world. I think that's true with any great music. And I think that's been true with drugs as well. | ||
that it can still provide a different way of looking at the | |||
world. I think that's true with any great music. And I think | |||
that's been true with drugs as well. | |||
'''Jerry:''' I think some part of being human is to seek other levels | '''Jerry:''' I think some part of being human is to seek other levels | ||
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More light? More information? | More light? More information? | ||
Life is inherently dangerous | Life is inherently dangerous — everybody dies. I'm not trying to | ||
apologize for drugs, certainly. The biggest problem with drugs | apologize for drugs, certainly. The biggest problem with drugs | ||
is that they're illegal, and you take on a lot of problems if you | is that they're illegal, and you take on a lot of problems if you | ||
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paid for tickets to come to a show and deserve to hear me play as | paid for tickets to come to a show and deserve to hear me play as | ||
well as I can, unimpaired. As far as making things more | well as I can, unimpaired. As far as making things more | ||
difficult for myself, that's something I might want to do | difficult for myself, that's something I might want to do — but I | ||
don't want to do it professionally. I've already done that, and | don't want to do it professionally. I've already done that, and | ||
I thing I've learned what there is to learn from it. But as far | I thing I've learned what there is to learn from it. But as far | ||
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reach some pleasantly changed state of mind, which might have | reach some pleasantly changed state of mind, which might have | ||
been seen as a possibility 25 years ago. Now it's the | been seen as a possibility 25 years ago. Now it's the | ||
opposite | opposite — it's a blotting out. | ||
Musician: But because that channel just doesn't work anymore or | ''Musician: But because that channel just doesn't work anymore or because it's being legally repressed, music's place becomes that much more important. | ||
because it's being legally repressed, music's place becomes that | |||
much more important. | |||
'''Jerry:''' Part of music's primary function has always been to get | '''Jerry:''' Part of music's primary function has always been to get people to celebrate or to produce changes of consciousness. That's what music is about. It changes your mood; it produces the heroic background music for your own life. | ||
people to celebrate or to produce changes of consciousness. | |||
That's what music is about. It changes your mood; it produces | |||
the heroic background music for your own life. | |||
{{cx}} | {{cx}} |
Revision as of 01:26, 16 October 2013
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