Post Your Favourite Sep.11th Theory

[Mechanical Grace]

Okay, please don't accuse me of linking this kind of thinking to anyone here, right, left, or nutso.... but I think most of you will find this as hilarious as I did. I can't tell if it's a gag or not, but it really doesn't matter...

http://members.aol.com/scarien/alien.htm

[Mr. Average]

Hey! the old double team is back! The posters of the superhero icons have once again joined the forces of discreditation through smarmy yuk's and name-calling. How predictable is that!

Oh Vey. What does that mean in the context of my statement that you excerpted? That you can't fathom the depth of the corruption because it is true? That you don't understand it? That you wish you knew more, but haven't taken the time to really read the evidence-base, so you throw out an "Oh Vey" and that implies superiority of thought. Holy mackeral, how transparent and so highly predictable of the type of retort that always follows. History will reveal, in your lifetime, the facts about Mena and the role that the Clintons played in enriching their state and personal coffers with drug money. Sadly, all of the FOB's (friends of Bill) involved at the time are confirmed dead or have not been heard or seen in decades. His inner circle. Like Ron Brown, turning states evidence on Bill, assassinated the week before his testimony. Single bullet to the dead center top of his skull. Equidistant between the inion and the forehead. Vince Foster. As per Mena, Bill was set up by another smart guy, Ross Perot (didn't say I liked him, just said he was smart), who baited Bill by constantly ridiculing Bill's leadership of the state of Arkansas. Bill would loudly crow about his doubling of the states economy during his terms. Ross would take a penny, put it in his left hand, then take another penny, place it next to the first, and say "look there, I just doubled it!". Insiders say this galled Clinton to no end. So he found new and inventive ways to enrich himself and others. At the cost of America's national security. History will reveal and if you take the time you will see the stark raving reality.

And WSS takes the typical approach of attacking my choice of a word, versus anything substantial. That, too, is completely predictable and sadly, expected. Attack the way the message is worded to deflect from the message.

That's what real action hero's do! Flame on! Torch.

[A rope leash]

I've heard folks discuss the sort of wild conjecture that is apparent in the contents of the link posted by Mech. Some folks say this sort of thing is done (by agents, I assume) to sour the conspiracist's pot, to make it look like anyone who believed that one aspect of the story was true also probably believed the rest of the crap. There's another example of this on the thread I linked to where the ex-agent is confessing all. Down a-ways is a reply full of photos and ranting about some indivduals who have lots of power but you've never heard of them. It is done to make serious folks look whacko. By whom? By secret agents both real and by inadvertant proxy.

It's like http://www.rense.com There's truth there, but try to find it. Remember Men in Black, when the agents checked the whacky tabloids for info?

Here's a real scandal that was apparently supressed.

http://www.thelawparty.com/FranklinCoverup/franklin.htm

What they do, see, is get these guys in compromising positions with underage kids and photograph it. Then, they can be blackmailed their entire careers. It's similar to what Skull and Bones does, getting in the casket and having homosexual sex for the delight of the camera. It explains why politicians who promise the world during an election campaign wind up unable to deliver after taking office...they are under threat of exposure if they don't play to the whims of their blackmailers, whom are, presumably, intelligence officials backed by the super-rich Rochesters and Rockefellers...

...but that's mostly conjecture on my part.

Heh.

[A rope leash]

The corporations are involved in there somehow, as well, because they always are.

[Mechanical Grace]

Oy veh as in "oh for fuck's sake, again with the omniscience". Dude, you need to get out of Orange County occasionally so you can get a more accurate understanding of the word 'fact'.

Taking a page from Rope's dog-eared book:

On Mena: http://www.salon.com/news/1998/03/26news.html

On 'mysterious' Clinton deaths: http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/outrage/clinton.htm

[A rope leash]

Of course, if the CIA is running drugs through Mena, no investigation of any sort will ever get to the bottom of it. There are websites that also connect GWB and family with Mena. If the Clintons are the only culprit here, why isn't the GWB FBI going after them? Is it because drugs and drug laws and drug money are just too irrestible for funding secret ops? They keep us high, they keep us in jail, they keep us broke. Meanwhile, down in Bogata...

As far as the folks that Clinton had killed...ummmm...is this supposed to be uncommon? Is it just coincidence that three prominate liberal politicians died in small plane crashes within the last few years? Think John John couldn't have had the Presidency if he wanted it? Ah, it's just accidents, but how do we really know? We don't, and this is the hole where conpiracy theories form.

Think about the foks who preached goodness and compassion through religious or political pulpits, and wound up dead after gaining a large following...Ghandi, Kennedy, King, even Lennon...the good guys. Somehow, Nixon and The Bushes just weren't worth shooting...only the pacifists were.

The good die young because the bad make sure they do.

I see that Salon had to bring out the fact that the person running the Arkansas Project asked the reporter if he was jewish, to make it seem that the guy was anti-semetic. If they guy doesn't like Jews, he must be bad and evil is the connotation. Well, quite frankly a lot of Christians don't like Jews and so do a lot of Muslims not like them. As for me, I don't care for the deeply religious at all, so my intentions must be just awful.

A lot of foks think that AIPAC, a political lobbying group in support of Israel, has too much influence on our legislatures. AIPAC often slanders such persons as anti-semetic, as if to be against the state of Israel is to be against the Jewish people. This lobbying group is at the center of a spy scandal that is under investigation by the FBI, yet our representatives still cozy up to this group and their influences. In my eye, that's treason, and in fact I feel that almost all of our elected leaders are guilty of treason...they have placed the interests of corporations and even other nations ahead of the interests of the United States and its people. It's treason, and they are all guilty as Hell.

http://antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=9045

[Mechanical Grace]

I see that Salon had to bring out the fact that the person running the Arkansas Project asked the reporter if he was jewish, to make it seem that the guy was anti-semetic. If they guy doesn't like Jews, he must be bad and evil is the connotation. Well, quite frankly a lot of Christians don't like Jews and so do a lot of Muslims not like them. As for me, I don't care for the deeply religious at all, so my intentions must be just awful.

A lot of foks think that AIPAC, a political lobbying group in support of Israel, has too much influence on our legislatures. AIPAC often slanders such persons as anti-semetic, as if to be against the state of Israel is to be against the Jewish people.

Yes but he didn't ask the reporter his opinions on AIPAC or on the state of Israel, he asked him if he was a Jew. As that has nothing to do with the topic at hand-- there are shitloads of liberal Jewish supporters of increased Palestinian voice and power, btw-- yes, I'd say that makes the guy an anti-semite, and gosh, call me crazy but I do think that that sort of prejudice is 'bad and evil' even if a 'lot of Christians and a lot of Muslims' (your words) do not. I got news for you, Rope. Being Jewish is not in and of itself about being deeply religious or even religious, period; as an atheist, some of your best friends are Jews (as they say).

I agree that point didn't belong there, cause it wasn't necessary; I suspect the reporter was so incensed he couldn't resist including it. But your stripes are showing. You don't seem to think there's anything wrong with 'disliking Jews'; either that or you're falling into a twisted version of what you say AIPAC alleges: acting as if being against the state of Israel makes it okay to be against the Jewish people.

[A rope leash]

"..as an atheist, some of my best friends are jews"?...makes no sense to me.

I assume that if someone characterizes themselves a jewish or whatever, then they are deeply religious. To me, if someone asks if you are jewish, and you answer the affirmative, then the faith must be there and the beliefs that go along with it. Otherwise, one would say "No, but I come from a jewish tradition..." ect.

My stripes are painted anti-religion and anti-Israel. Jews are involved here, but I don't see them as being collectively evil or good, no more than the involved Muslims and Christians are. These folks are to be judged by their actions and by the actions of their nations. If they are jewish, they can cry anti-semitism, but that doesn't mean that anyone in the world is rounding up Jews and sending them to camps, it only implies that the person criticising them believes they should be. Stupid fucks everywhere fall for it every time.

If I truly dislike any religious group, it's the Christians, because I know them. Jews? I don't know many. Muslims? The only ones I know are business owners and doctors, so who am I to judge?

As to whether the Jews control the government and media, I think that is a paranoid fantasy. A lot of folks in media and entertainment are jewish, however, and this is why Jews are often painted softly while Christians and Muslims are often painted with contempt. It's bound to happen, but I don't think that they do it totally intentionally. In real life, however, Jews are not at this time an oppressed people. In fact, the Jews who control Israel are themselves oppressors. They won't speak much of it on television, but Christian evangelists invariably cause trouble and fervent Muslims are constantly portrayed as crazy killers. You know it's so because you watch American television.

No, there's no jewish conpiracy per se, but there is definitely an Israeli agenda that is being shoved down the throats of our representatives, and the major pusher of this is AIPAC. I don't care if they really are God's children...the interests of our people should come first.

[Mechanical Grace]

I assume that if someone characterizes themselves a jewish or whatever, then they are deeply religious. To me, if someone asks if you are jewish, and you answer the affirmative, then the faith must be there and the beliefs that go along with it. Otherwise, one would say "No, but I come from a jewish tradition..." ect.

See, you're just wrong there, entirely wrong. Most non-religious Jews I've met or read (a LOT) will say unequivocally and unhesitatingly that they are Jews. You say you don't know many Jews, and I believe you. That's not your fault. But take my word you're wrong on that point-- it will strengthen your arguments if you stop using the word Jew in the way you've been trying to, honest.

[A rope leash]

I understand that a lot of folks identify with and claim to be adherants to religions they don't devoutly practice. But, if someone is willing to be known and identified as a Jew or Christian or whatever, that would be enough for an atheist such as myself to consider as deeply religious.

You are asserting that being jewish is something larger than having a faith in a religion. It's a culture, I know, and folks identify with their culture. It is what it is, and I simply see it in an alternate fashion.

Hey, whaddya think about the Franlklin sex scandal link? Pretty hot stuff, huh? It was actually in the newspaper!

[Who Shot Sam?]

And WSS takes the typical approach of attacking my choice of a word, versus anything substantial. That, too, is completely predictable and sadly, expected. Attack the way the message is worded to deflect from the message.

Your message is shit too - how's that? The "choice of word" says a lot about where you're coming from. It says to me that in your opinion Bush and his cronies deserves to be scrutinized only becuase they have fucked up royally in the eyes of anyone with half a brain. Otherwise we would just be obliged to keep our mouths shut and keep drinking the Kool-Aid. That ain't my idea of democracy.

You confuse rhetorical diarrhea with having something substantive and coherent to say.

[Mechanical Grace]

You are asserting that being jewish is something larger than having a faith in a religion.

Yes I am, because it is. Cause they didn't question people about their faith when they were handing out the yellow stars, you know. It's different. You can't say "willing to be known as a Jew or a Christian or whatever" because Christian and Jew are not comparable terms.

As a point of interest, for instance, the most conservatively observant Jews have argued (much to the outrage of more moderate people everywhere) that no amount of faith or observance can ever make you a Jew; ONLY being born of a Jewish mother can, and if you're so born, you're a Jew whether you want to be or not, end of story.

The reason I joked that as an atheist some of your best friends are Jews is because there have been and are large numbers of vocal atheists who are Jews. But they don't say they 'identify with Jewish culture,' they say they are Jews, and they are.

Why am I having this discussion??

[Mr. Average]

So it is completely correct for an atheist to refer to themselves as "Jewish" or a "Jew"? Just to clarify. I did not know that "Jew" was a defined race identity, like Caucausian, American Indian, Indian, Asian...

This is a a significant change to my understanding, and I wonder if it is a concensus opinion among those that the Jewish people. I cannot imagine a person sayinghtey are atheistic and Jewish in the same sentence, but by yur post (and maybe your example) it is relatively common?

Wow. Learn something new everyday. My good friend Steve will be astounded that his Russian Jewish heritage has no obligate connection to his Faith practice.

[Mr. Average]

WSS.. Still no comment on the post. Just more name-calling. Thanks for validating my post.

I have more than half a brain. So do you. Sadly, though, there is a part of the cortex in some that disallows context, and only views the world through a myopic haze. Forgetting history. Assuming that this administration is worse than any other because, well,it is the current one. And it is easy to roll with the tide.

This administration has terrific problems. And a cast of dubious characters at the switch. Sad. Now, WSS, before you call me poopy-pants or something equally intelligent with that huge brain of yours, compare and contrast this administration with any other modern (20 century +) administration and tell me why this one is worse. Or why the Clinton, Carter, Reagan, Nixon, Bush 1 were better.

It is easier just to name-call. And great fun.

for a 5 year old.

[Mechanical Grace]

So it is completely correct for an atheist to refer to themselves as "Jewish" or a "Jew"?

No, but it's not uncommon for people who identify as Jewish to be atheists (and correctness doesn't enter into it). I'm an atheist but I'm not Jewish. I was raised and confirmed as a Catholic, but that is a faith, and so I would never call myself a Catholic now.

Just to clarify. I did not know that "Jew" was a defined race identity, like Caucausian, American Indian, Indian, Asian...

It's not, and I won't even get into the debate about whether the concept of race has any real meaning. However, except in the case of converts, it is a bloodline and a background. Like much else in society, it's a matter of debate. All I wanted to say was that there are lots of people who will say immediately that they are Jews without intending to imply anything about their beliefs.

How your friend Steve identifies himself is entirely up to him.

WSS's comment was entirely about your post and involved no name-calling at all; no one here is obligated by logic or anything else to comment on every detail of your opinions. Your thinking, or at least your writing, is always muddled (e.g., see my first quote from you, above) and
refusing to debate you doesn't validate bubkes.

[Who Shot Sam?]

Mr. Average - where exactly did I call you a name? I've looked at my posts again but not found it. My argument is with your line of reasoning, and I think that I fairly and accurately stated my objection to your statement regarding Bush. That you chose not to read it properly (or accept it) is your problem, not mine. I haven't had my brain measured, but I would imagine it is roughly the same size as yours. Have I claimed otherwise?

[A rope leash]

Here's a website run by an atheist of Jewish descent:

http://www.nogodblog.com

He says he's not a practicing Jew, but he will defend Israel if you want to argue with him.

[A rope leash]

http://www.projectcensored.org/newsflas ... tml#israel

[A rope leash]

http://www.ussliberty.org/

http://www.sane.org.za/docs/views/

[Mechanical Grace]

Um, okay. All I was and am saying is that if you 'don't like Jews' or think that such a stand is okay, you should be open to being called an anti-semite. Neither misuse or abuse of the term, nor the policies of Israel, changes the fact that pre-judging someone on the basis of ethnicity is bigotry. I'm not accusing you of it, I'm telling you you should be more careful of your language if you don't want to be misunderstood. We know you have contempt for people who believe in God; I would say that's bigotry as well. But having contempt for Jews (I'm not saying you do) is bigotry of a different sort. Just know what message you're sending.

[miss buenos aires]

I've just got to chime in and say I know tons of atheist Jews. It's more of a culture and a history that we identify with than a religious ethos. Just saying.

[A rope leash]

No doubt in my mind that I'm bigoted against bigots. Do not Jews claim to be God's chosen? Do not Christians think they are forgiven and all others are lost? Don't those crazy Muslims want to kill the infidel?

Yes, I'm bigoted against the stupidly religious, that's well established. I just wish everyone would shuck their goddamn religions and think for a fucking minute, know what I mean?

I have worked personally with several Israelis. The company I used to work for was purchased by and Israeli corporation. Look, I spent days on the road with these folks, worked hard and sweated daily with them and shared motel rooms with them for chrissakes. I've done the same with Christian folk, Muslim folk, and Hindu folk. Also, atheists and Cincinnatti Reds fans. One thing we learn when we get to know all sorts of folks is that there are basically billions of them and that's a lot, and all they are really is human beings. They can set themselves up with whatever they want...they can choose to identify themselves with the traditions that separate and compartmentalize human beings...or they can grow up and realize where they are and what time it is. I've had some deep conversations with some of these folks, and O yeah I hurt some of them, but as many as I've spanked I've also made friends with.

I'm working a new field service job now. I rode with an old fella who said he was and ex-government worker who had spent time overseas in diplomatic service. We were just cruising along when he just came out of nowhere and said he fucking hated Muslims. I guess he thought I would start salivating and join in. I just thought of beer and said, "O really?" There's no talking to someone like that. He's a bigot. He's also a Chrisitian. I'm against religion. The Jews have to be able to take the punches like everyone else, and if someone decides I need to be walled off and tattooed as anti-semetic, thinking people are still going to see it for the bullshit that it is.

I think that lobbies for foreign governments should not be allowed. To me, Israel should have zero input in our government's policies. A recent Harvard study has been released that indicates that Israeli influences in both the Legislative and Executive branches are huge. Of course, it's been attacked as anti-semetic by folks who should really know better than to shit on such a fine institution.

Careful readers know I'm only bigoted against the bigots, and the traitors. If you're not a careful reader who gives a shit what you think?

[Mechanical Grace]

Do not Jews claim to be God's chosen? Do not Christians think they are forgiven and all others are lost? Don't those crazy Muslims want to kill the infidel?

The answer to all three questions is "not all of them". If you can see past the fundamentalist brands of those and other religions and know that people with faith can and do "think for a minute," just as clearly as you do, then to my mind you're not a bigot, not that you should care what I think.

And I feel I really must go on record here and now in stating that I don't care if people shit on Harvard.

[bambooneedle]

People cling to their cultures because they're not tough enough not to.

[mood swung]

to recap:

Bigotry bad. Tolerance good.

Judaism is a race AND/OR a religion. Christianity not so much.

Name-calling bad, gibberish worse.

Shit on Harvard.

Did I miss anything?