Passion Of The Christ

lapinsjolis · Post by **lapinsjolis** » Sat Mar 20, 2004 12:41 pm

I have to say I don't concern myself too much with other religions in that vein. Of course I follow what I believe is true as you do. As for sending anyone to hell, I nor any organization has that power. That is what I know to be true and what I've been taught. I believe that we are all connected regardless of creed, gender or nationality. I'm of a Carmelite turn in spirituality which reaches to the very core of the human being and beyond it. The concern is in nothing as narrow as you mentioned. If you would listen or if you cared it's one thing but I see little hope in that. I wish you well in your unbelief (I've been there) and I would hope you'd wish me well in my belief. I have no way to know the workings of your heart and I'd beg the same courtesy when you speak of what I hold dear.

noiseradio · Post by **noiseradio** » Sat Mar 20, 2004 1:41 pm

The problem with the associations thing is that it is almost always taken too far. It is not fair to me to lump me in with Jerry Fallwell, crusaders, or any other entity in the realm of Christianity that I don't adhere to (not that anyone here has done so. Just showing why it's a bad idea to make assumptions). It would be no more fair for me to lump Bambooneedle or Rope or any other avowed atheist/agnostic on this board with the likes of Stalin or some other horrid person or organization that happens to not believe in God. Not that all associations are bad. The truth is, you could make some association between me and other Christians that would flatter me immensely, but it's still not a good idea to judge an individual by the actions of a group throughout 2000 years of history. I am me, and I don't take kindly to assumptions being made about what I think or deeply believe based on the experiences others have had.

Rope, there are people who hurt you in regards to your brother. I'm really sorry about that. But I didn't do it, and I don't condemn your brother for anything. So stop thinking of me in the same context as the bastards who deserve your scorn. And then understand that I'm not the only person of faith who feels that way. I'll grant you that humans have done horrible things in the name of Christ. That doesn't mean they were right or that He approves. Or that I approve. You seem annoyed that I distance myself from most of the distasteful byproducts of manmade religious institutions. Well, get used to being disappointed. I am not part of an organized or traditional church. I left the institutional church because I was annoyed with a lot of doctrinal dogma that seemed to me to have nothing at all to do with knowing God. I'm not going into any specifics because I don't want to offend any of the members of this board who are part of organized churches. (See how that works? I can disagree and be respectful of their beliefs at the same time. Hmmmmm.)I count them as fellow believers, and that's enough for me. The bottom line is that a lot of your gripes with religion are shared by me and quite a few other believers. If I'm reticent about letting you make unfair assumptions about me, there's good reason. So stop it.

bambooneedle · Post by **bambooneedle** » Sat Mar 20, 2004 5:44 pm

But neither atheists nor agnostics are a part of any supposed "in" association that they benefit from, from just being part of it. That's why I've been contemplating pretending I'm a Christian as I'm sure many would... so I can get more access to all those benefits: being automatically thought of as "a good guy" by a lot of people, getting to socialize with well-dressed virgins every Sunday, getting to hear the old guys talk about their power and money after church, and, if I hang around long enough, about the well-dressed virgins.... I've been there.

lapinsjolis · Post by **lapinsjolis** » Sat Mar 20, 2004 6:08 pm

I can't really take the argument too much to heart. I've been to rich parishes but I've also gone to Church with very old not so well dressed virgins and homeless people-all are welcome-even the wealthy. We all fall short but that shouldn't make us look down on one another what's the line, "One must be patient with the rich and the mighty" or "with the rich and the mighty one needs patience"? Well you get the meaning. Advice I could use as well. Don't worry it's not in the bible. Atheists do have organizations does O'Hare ring a bell for one? On the upside I'm well dressed!

bambooneedle · Post by **bambooneedle** » Sat Mar 20, 2004 6:42 pm

It's amazing how much some of those old guys would swear just 5 minutes outta church...

LJ, never heard of O'Hare and I'm glad.

Mr. Average · Post by **Mr. Average** » Sun Mar 21, 2004 6:15 am

Faith.

It's not exposition. It's not science. It will never be proven. Or disproven.

It is inside and around and through. Or it isn't.

It can be taught, but only implants with experience and something that is mystical and completely inexplicable save for the individual that lives it. And the people that they touch.

For every guy that swears five minutes out of church, there are five that grasp for faith five minutes before their death. Maybe the ratio is more like 10:1.

Or 7:1

But that's science. Statistics. There is no use for these tools within the realm of true Faith.

God Bless you, all. If that hurts, then shake it off like dust off your sandals.

And I close with a question: "Rope, how are you able to assert that you have been around the block a few more times than Ms.Laps?" Is there an "around the block" lap counter index? And is there a direct correlation between going multiple times around the block and becoming so jaded, and so spiteful of people of faith that resonable discourse is abandoned? How many laps does it take? Because I think I, too, have been around the block a few times, and it is only strengthening my Faith. And I somehow believe that we all will have the occasion to go around the block as many times as necessary to gain our own personal views.

It's not a race.

Faith.

noiseradio · Post by **noiseradio** » Sun Mar 21, 2004 12:46 pm

Did a google search for "atheist organizations." I hadn't really thought about that idea, so I was curious as to what that search would turn up. The first hit was a site that lists the names and numbers of atheist organizations all over the worl. A sampling:

USA

Alliance of Secular Humanist Societies
American Atheists, Inc. (AAINC)
Atheist Alliance
Atheists United
Bertrand Russell Society
Campus Freethought Alliance
Council for Secular Humanism
Freedom From Religion Foundation
Institute for Humanist Studies
Military Association of Atheists and Freethinkers
Prison Atheist League of America

Canada

Dia Humanism
Humanist Association of Canada
Humanist Association of Ottawa

UK

Association of Irish Humanists
British Humanist Association
Gay and Lesbian Humanist Association
Humanist Society of Scotland
National Secular Society
Prometheus Books

New Zealand

The New Zealand Association of Rationalists and Humanists, Inc.
The Auckland University Atheists

Australia

Atheist Foundation of Australia, Inc
Council for Australian Humanist Societies
Humanist Society of NSW
Humanist Society of Queensland
Humanist Society of South Australia
Humanist Society of Victoria
Humanist Society of Western Australia
Rationalist Association of NSW

The complete listing for this web site can be found at:

http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/orgs.html

I'm sure that's not an exhaustive list, but perhaps it offers evidence that atheists do indeed create the associations that Bamboo was speaking of.[/b]

laughingcrow · Post by **laughingcrow** » Sun Mar 21, 2004 2:25 pm

As an 'evolutionary biologist' (although I call myself a zoologist, studying behaviour is deemed an evolutionary science) I suppose I'm subject to judgement that I am agnostic or atheist..which isn't the case. I do have a spirituality.
A friend of mine went through a period recently where he wondered whether or not our type of science could go hand in hand with his faith...he eventually realised they could, but he felt like he had lost some of his spirituality because of this confusion.

I don't necessarily think that you have to resist evolutionary theory to have a faith in *deity of your choice*...but so many people do.

Noise, the humanist groups you have listed there generally seem to cite evolution all the time as a 'weapon' against religion. I don't like this fact, mainly because it's used by people with a bad understanding of both evolutionary theory and religion.

I think that the fact is, all these 'societies', be they religious or atheist (which is a little like a religion too in the manner in which they defend it and stick to it's way of life) all try too hard to convinve everyone else they're wrong, rather than just 'being'. To A Rope Leash's point, the idea of other religions is a threat to them, just as the idea of religion is a threat to the atheist.

As a great man once said:

Don't worry, be happy.

noiseradio · Post by **noiseradio** » Sun Mar 21, 2004 2:44 pm

Crow,

I really like your post. And I just want to make clear that I wasn't trying to post those organizations' names for any purpose other than to demonstrate that they exist. I have no opinion of any of them, as I'm completely unfamiliar with what they stand for (other than the fairly obvious tenet that God doesn't exist, probably).

I have lots of Christian friends who believe in evolution. I don't think they're mutually exclusive at all. Nor do I believe creationists are morons. Neither theory is provable without a time machine. Even Stephen Hawking acknowledged in his Brief History of Time book that all of this could very well have been set up by a Supreme Being as it is, with light from distant stars already reaching us from the beginning of creation and others set to arrive later, etc. His point (a valid one) is that one way or the other, the universe obeys certain laws (speed of light, for example) and --barring a creationist explanation for a moment--one can mathematically retrace the steps of those celestial movements through space and time and arrive at a theory like the Big Bang. Some of my Christian friends who also believe in evolution assert that God set the universe and life in motion and have no problem with the idea of evolutionary science as a result of divine planning.

For me, I'm not concerned about those questions really at all. I'm just glad to be here; the details don't matter.

I think you're quite right about people with different ideas about faith just bing happy with what they believe. Coersion and attempts at it never produced anything good, as far as I can see.

Charlie Sedaka · Post by **Charlie Sedaka** » Sun Mar 21, 2004 8:21 pm

Jesus was alright

selfmademug · Post by **selfmademug** » Sun Mar 21, 2004 8:42 pm

Stephen Jay Gould wrote a little book not long before his death about science and religion, called ROCK OF AGES. It is not his best writing, frankly, but the argument in it (I won't try to summarize it cause I haven't got the mental chops right now) is a good and fair one.

bambooneedle · Post by **bambooneedle** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:15 am

A humanist is just someone who cares about humans, isn't it?

Well if one can reconcile their religious beliefs with Darwin or whatever and they can be humanists, then these 'humanist' associations wouldn't exclude them. Only the ones called "Atheist something" would, and I realize that the term atheist itself is an obvious reaction to theism, literally meaning non theist.... then, really like walking around calling yourself a non-homosexual, or non something else. So it might be better (at least it'd be my preference now, if I must be defined like such) to be called a humanist, and if anyone would like to know they can ask if secular or theist, or whatever else, but second to humanist.

I'm also wary of putting beliefs too up front, because, as I've said, that is to politicize them, to polarize reactions deliberately, to harshly define who is in and who is out for example. You can't get more inclusive than 'humanist'.

noiseradio · Post by **noiseradio** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 9:28 am

Bamboo,

Interestiong points. I don't like politicization of personal beliefs eiter. I wish politics were less religious and religion was less political.

I want to stress that I didn't categorize the organizations with "Humanist" in the title as atheist. A web site devoted to promoting atheist organizations did. I can't vouch for how accurate ir inaccurate that web site is.

selfmademug · Post by **selfmademug** » Wed Mar 24, 2004 10:02 am

An interesting link-- a very quick read sampling some local academic/intellectual reactions, all very critical. The piece itself is not hard-hitting news-- The Gazette is just Harvard's in-house rag. And yes, I know, Harvard Divinity School is very left-leaning (it's probably the most radical school at Harvard, though to be honest that's not saying that much). But I thought some here might find some interesting things in it. You can also listen to the whole panel discussion there if you like.

http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/dai ... ssion.html

laughingcrow · Post by **laughingcrow** » Sun Mar 28, 2004 3:45 am

I went and saw it....and I thought it was really well done. It wasn't as gorey as I'd expected thanks to the hype (to many others it would have been though...), and I thought it was all done very pasionately, not as preachy as I thought. Moving.

Some poetic license though....like the asexual 'devil' with the giant baby stroking his face...what?????? Oh, and a crow comes and pecks one of the blokes on the cross next to Jesus...was that in the bible? I don't remember that bit....

Jackson Monk · Post by **Jackson Monk** » Sun Mar 28, 2004 4:03 am

I think Mel Gibson is really talented and is in no way the kind of actor/director who would twist historic facts order to suit his own personal agenda....

crash8_durham · Post by **crash8_durham** » Sun Mar 28, 2004 9:31 am

When it comes to religion and politics, everyone uses what they need for their own agenda. Most of them just don't think they do.

selfmademug · Post by **selfmademug** » Sun Mar 28, 2004 3:09 pm

Thanks for clarifying, Doof

godgivemestrength · Post by **godgivemestrength** » Sun Mar 28, 2004 5:58 pm

mad max was good fun wasn't it?

ice nine · Post by **ice nine** » Sun Mar 28, 2004 6:02 pm

I haven't seen Passion yet, but I plan on renting it when it comes out. I will also rent The Life of Brian at the same time. My question is this: Which one shall I watch first?

godgivemestrength · Post by **godgivemestrength** » Sun Mar 28, 2004 6:05 pm

spare a schekel for an old ex movie heart throb...

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Passion Of The Christ

Have you seen Passion Of The Christ?